Consensus
I think it's absolutely hilarious that so many common sense proposals for minor changes elsewhere get stomped on as the community has not reached a "consensus", yet all it takes is for one wiki grandee to say "It is clear to me -- and judging from the poll I posted above, most of the older community members -- that the builds section is simply not worth keeping in its current form" and the whole lot gets done away with. I've not got a problem with a site being run by administrators and older community members - they know what they're doing and have the sites best wishes at heart. What I hate is the pretence of "community decisions" and "consensus" when it's clearly nothing of the sort. Say it how it is guys, you're not making any friends by dangling toys down to the proles only to take them away when they start getting played with. It's all well and good saying you welcome the development of new ideas post-wipe, but considering the way the wipe has been imposed by these "older community members" in the first place I see no reason to believe that any policy - no matter how good - will be accepted by them if it conflicts with their world view. --NieA7 06:42, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
I don't like how this build wipe has been proposed and actioned, as the reason given of "It is clear to me -- and judging from the poll I posted above, most of the older community members -- that the builds section is simply not worth keeping in its current form" seems to imply that older members have an intrinsically more important voice when matters such as this are discussed. That flies in the face of general consensus, which seems to be what is continually preached as the golden rule. With that comment from the admin who is taking charge of this situation in mind, I see no reason to think that any future policy will be accepted if it conflicts with the world view of these "older members", regardless of how many newer members support it. --NieA7 07:30, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- Look at Template:Tested-build. "This build has been successfully vetted by the GuildWiki community." The community being 3 people in most cases. If you're going to argue about consensus in one place, prepare to do it in all. I don't remember you complaining about that template saying "community" when it referred to 3 people. -Auron
06:46, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- Then you didn't look hard enough, I've never been fond of the vetting system or the approved template and I agree that they need to be altered. Besides, altering the wording on a template is rather less of a change than the deletion of an entire section. --NieA7 06:48, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- We are not pretending consensus and user base acceptance here, atleast I'm not. If this article gives that impression, I'll need to rewirte it a bit.
- I suggest everyone to take a look at GuildWiki talk:No Original Builds and continue the discussion there to get to a consensus on the new policy proposal. --
(talk) 06:54, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- It's not here I'm talking about so much as the entire wiki, where everything is supposed to be done by consensus. In practice this seems to boil down to very small groups, the argument being won by the person who can type the longest. What irritates me most is the poll - opinion is clearly hugely divided, yet the fact that "older members" voted to axe it swung the decision. Somehow that really rankles. --NieA7 06:57, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- The sweep is not based on consensus or the poll. It is based on 2 admins using the GW:ADMIN to do what they want
(Once promoted, an administrator is fully autonomous: he may do as his powers allow, as he sees fit.), trying to benefit the wiki with their actions. Ofcourse we do not want to act against the opinnions of most of the users, that would be a political suicide. However, the build policy discussion has waded back and forth for months now so some action needs to be taken. After the sweep and temporary post no builds rule people are more likely to agree on a working policy, especially as we give a month time to discuss before the sweep. -- (talk) 07:15, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- Fair enough, but then why have a poll in the first place - why not just use GW:ADMIN straight away (poll and decision are only a few days apart - the builds mess has been going on for months but this has happened relatively quickly)? If we want the views of most of the users (as opposed to editors) wouldn't it be better to have a template warning of potential deletion pending discussion/binding vote/convincing of the admins (etc etc) that most users want to keep the builds? Not that I imagine most of them would comment of course, but if there's any concern about going against the wishes of most users then those users should be given a chance to say so (I bet most casual browsers of the site never look at any of the policy or talk pages, leaving them oblivious to all this discussion). --NieA7 07:24, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- The poll was probably made by Tanaric to get the views of those who are actively interested in the build section and follow the dicussions. The poll wasn't needed, but it was a nice gesture and showed that people don't oppose changes and partially support what we are doing. --
(talk) 07:31, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- That's my problem though - I don't want nice gestures if they're ultimately meaningless, personally I'd prefer radical action to just be taken if it's already been decided on (the poll was pretty much split down the middle, with a small majority in favour of keeping the build name space, but the following action went to the extreme of deleting the name space. To my mind that implies the decision was already made). --NieA7 07:36, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- It wasn't made yet, and i was against the deletion before Tanaric brought his idea to the public. If the vote would ave been almost 100% against this, I would not be rushing this, but with so much support we are on safe ground trying to do something for the best of the wiki. no one has pointed major problems with our actions yet. -- (talk) 07:38, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- Unless I've missed something there seems to be as much opposition to this specific course of action as there is support. --NieA7 07:43, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- Ouch. This is going to be a painful time for the wiki in the interim until a new policy is put in place, one of the wiki's greatest strengths was in the development nd sharing of builds in a convenient environment. No other site offers such freedom, ease of searching, or flexibility. In fact, most players I know use wiki as their only source of third-party builds or indeed purely as such a source. It is one of the things which has always made Guildwiki one of the most reliable and useful GW sites there is, if not THE most. I sincerely hope that whatever new build policy is implemented it won't stifle what sets Guildwiki head and shoulders above all the other GW sites out there. - Sunyavadin 12:03, 20 March 2007 (GMT)
- NieA7: Not all of the voters were against a temporary swipe. The poll seemed to ask about a perma sweep and the useres answered accordingly. Sunyavadin: I hope that GuildWiki:No Original Builds is going to get accepted before the sweep so we can immediately start again with the builds section. Btw, the wiki is not well known for it's build section but of the other documentation factors. Other fansites are far better for builds atm. -- (talk) 08:05, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- The poll was split, with pretty much as many against as in favour. I know many editors favour this idea, but I don't think there is so much support when compared with the dissent. --NieA7 08:19, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- The poll did not ask the right question at all. It asked if the build section is good or bad. The wipe is not deleting the section, just making a fresh start for it, so we are not acting against the ideals of those who voted for the build section. The poll question should have been a lot different to be of any use. -- (talk) 08:22, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- The poll did not ask the right question at all. It asked if the build section is good or bad. The wipe is not deleting the section, just making a fresh start for it, so we are not acting against the ideals of those who voted for the build section. The poll question should have been a lot different to be of any use. --
- The poll was split, with pretty much as many against as in favour. I know many editors favour this idea, but I don't think there is so much support when compared with the dissent. --NieA7 08:19, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- NieA7: Not all of the voters were against a temporary swipe. The poll seemed to ask about a perma sweep and the useres answered accordingly. Sunyavadin: I hope that GuildWiki:No Original Builds is going to get accepted before the sweep so we can immediately start again with the builds section. Btw, the wiki is not well known for it's build section but of the other documentation factors. Other fansites are far better for builds atm. --
- Ouch. This is going to be a painful time for the wiki in the interim until a new policy is put in place, one of the wiki's greatest strengths was in the development nd sharing of builds in a convenient environment. No other site offers such freedom, ease of searching, or flexibility. In fact, most players I know use wiki as their only source of third-party builds or indeed purely as such a source. It is one of the things which has always made Guildwiki one of the most reliable and useful GW sites there is, if not THE most. I sincerely hope that whatever new build policy is implemented it won't stifle what sets Guildwiki head and shoulders above all the other GW sites out there. - Sunyavadin 12:03, 20 March 2007 (GMT)
- Unless I've missed something there seems to be as much opposition to this specific course of action as there is support. --NieA7 07:43, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- It wasn't made yet, and i was against the deletion before Tanaric brought his idea to the public. If the vote would ave been almost 100% against this, I would not be rushing this, but with so much support we are on safe ground trying to do something for the best of the wiki. no one has pointed major problems with our actions yet. --
- That's my problem though - I don't want nice gestures if they're ultimately meaningless, personally I'd prefer radical action to just be taken if it's already been decided on (the poll was pretty much split down the middle, with a small majority in favour of keeping the build name space, but the following action went to the extreme of deleting the name space. To my mind that implies the decision was already made). --NieA7 07:36, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- The poll was probably made by Tanaric to get the views of those who are actively interested in the build section and follow the dicussions. The poll wasn't needed, but it was a nice gesture and showed that people don't oppose changes and partially support what we are doing. --
- Fair enough, but then why have a poll in the first place - why not just use GW:ADMIN straight away (poll and decision are only a few days apart - the builds mess has been going on for months but this has happened relatively quickly)? If we want the views of most of the users (as opposed to editors) wouldn't it be better to have a template warning of potential deletion pending discussion/binding vote/convincing of the admins (etc etc) that most users want to keep the builds? Not that I imagine most of them would comment of course, but if there's any concern about going against the wishes of most users then those users should be given a chance to say so (I bet most casual browsers of the site never look at any of the policy or talk pages, leaving them oblivious to all this discussion). --NieA7 07:24, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- The sweep is not based on consensus or the poll. It is based on 2 admins using the GW:ADMIN to do what they want
- It's not here I'm talking about so much as the entire wiki, where everything is supposed to be done by consensus. In practice this seems to boil down to very small groups, the argument being won by the person who can type the longest. What irritates me most is the poll - opinion is clearly hugely divided, yet the fact that "older members" voted to axe it swung the decision. Somehow that really rankles. --NieA7 06:57, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
- (reset indent) We can only answer the question that's there. Besides, it's not creating a level playing field - No Original Builds is being pushed very heavily, seems like a foregone conclusion. --NieA7 08:31, 20 March 2007 (CDT)