Talk: Secondary professions for an Assassin

the assain/warrior section is out of date because of the change to Watch Yourself dstroyer 666 62.252.32.13 07:24, 27 December 2006 (CST).

well then update it... Xeon 07:41, 27 December 2006 (CST)

yay jamaica!

I removed some areas of the A/W and A/Mo article and changed some parts as some of the suggestions were a bit far fetched (A/mo with Reversal of Fortune). I also changed some of the wording that was clearly point of view, and very argueably correct. I might get back to editing this later, but anyone else is welcome to clean it up. I also have no idea what the last sentence of the A/mo paragraph means. If someone could please help me with that.

Edit: Whoever wrote the article to begin with seems to have some kind of dislike for the assassin, and maybe they don't know how to play it so well, as they continualy focus on "frailness" and "lack of healing". Maybe someone could focus the article toward how the assassin is played, not as a tank or a healer, but as a hit-run mass damage dealer. --Sagius Truthbarron 04:49, 12 February 2007 (CST)

lol

delete

see Category talk:Profession combinations#why delete --Honorable Sarah 22:36, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

Assassin/Dervish

Anyone know why this combo would be good? As of now, the article has absolutely no useful information (we already know that critical strikes improves the damage of EVERY weapon, not just scythes) --Krin 20:54, 2 June 2007 (CDT)

Scythes have the highest max damage in the game, and they hit multiple enemies. --DEATHWING 21:41, 2 June 2007 (CDT)

Yes, but they also have one of the slowest attack speeds and thus, the energy management function of the Assassin primary is less effective.--Krin 22:37, 7 June 2007 (CDT)

If they hit the maximum of 3 enemies at a time, the attack speed is actually faster than daggers. 3 "hits" every 1.75 seconds compared to 3 hits every 3 seconds with daggers. Not saying that it is a fantastic idea, just saying why. --DEATHWING 08:58, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

Rending Sweep. -Auron 09:46, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

Malicious Strike. Solus 10:31, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

Well... that's an assassin skill, no need to go /D for it :P -Auron 10:33, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

The scythe mate. Solus 10:35, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

Definitely. You don't need any more proof than doing 100+ damage on three targets at once with a single hit, with an enchantment and wounding strike + malicious strike. --59.100.96.135 00:39, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

Assasin/Warrior

Since the add of the sunspear skills, the line "Assassins do not have any attack speed enhancing skills" is out of date. Should we remove it?

Sunspear skills are PvE only. If you play an assassin in PvP you still need to grab a secondary profession if you're looking for faster attacks. Perhaps a note should be made, but - as far as PvP is concerned - the comment is still valid. —DaveK 01:17, 20 June 2007 (GMT)

Butcher Job

Some notes I can understand removing....but:

• The knockdown from Shock can drive an attack chain, though it is no longer as popular as other skills such as hexes to drive the attack chain.

Why remove that? It was very widely used by assassins for a long time and is still very usable. --DEATHWING 16:45, 2 July 2007 (CDT)

Mostly because HotO does the exact same thing...better. Readem (talk*contribs) 16:52, 2 July 2007 (CDT)

That is assuming that they are not close to anybody, and it's not like HotO is a new skill or anything. --DEATHWING 17:00, 2 July 2007 (CDT)

Neither is Shock. Readem (talk*contribs) 17:30, 2 July 2007 (CDT)

Shock is fine tbh, warriors take shock all the time and they only have 2 pips of regen and nobody complains about them. Sins usually use shock in a more... cheesy way, but it's still viable. -Auron 17:32, 2 July 2007 (CDT)

A/N

Is Parasitic Bond actually used for "must strike a hexed foe" or "if target is hexed" assassin skills. More importantly, does it work well? I know Parasitic Bond has a set duration of 20 but, it costs you a secondary and the hex has very little synergy with assassin skills other than being a hex. Siphon has 5 recharge, but it's just so much more useful to assassins by default. And this spares up a secondary for an IAS. 67.162.10.70 13:17, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Is it worth mentioning Plague Touch? Personally I feel it is, especially if the only /Mo advice is Mending Touch. Perrsun 13:50, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Mending Touch

You removed the Mending Touch note why? --DEATHWING 22:38, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

I'm guessing it was removed because it's redundant with the note in the general secondary professions article. -- Gordon Ecker 22:54, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Mending Touch removes conditions, that is very true... Readem (talk*contribs) 23:26, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

A/P...

How bout GftE spam? Or remove warr fear me spam... ~~ frvwfr2 (talk)(contributions) 23:02, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Um, possibly because assassins have a thing known as Critical Strikes O.o? Readem (talk*contribs) 23:26, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

I just crunched the numbers ...

Skills	Nothing	"Go for the Eyes!"	Critical Eye	Both
Critical hit rate	32.6%	39.6%	42.35%	55.35%
Mean net energy per second	0.95255	1.1583	1.62215	2.0024
Mean auto-attack DPS	15.5142	16.3332	16.65495	18.17595

The table assumes 14 Dagger Mastery, 13 Critical Strikes, a level 20 attacker and target, an AL 60 target, an unmodded white weapon and the additive stacking of critical hit rate bonuses and an extremely unrealistic (unless it's on a hero) 100% success rate for activating GftE in the middle of double strikes. I don't know if giving the party a 39% chance of a ~41% damage boost on their next attack every ~3.9 seconds is worth it, but it looks decent if you've got a CS / Dagger build that's light on skills and heavy on energy consumption, or have a Paragon in the party who uses a lot of Finales. -- Gordon Ecker 00:31, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Sin

VoS and no DW = fail. Vig sins suck. Pls kill moar. Readem (talk*contribs) 20:44, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

I crunched the numbers. VoS + AoHM + CA + CE with 12 Scythe Mastery, 13 Critical Strikes, 9 Earth Prayers, rank 1 on an allegiance title track, a max customized Guided by Fate scythe and all buffs active inflicts ~73.7 DPS per target vs. AL 60, ~52.0 DPS per target vs. AL 80 and ~36.83 DPS per target vs. AL 100 while attacking. VoS + AoHM + Heart of Fury with 16 Scythe Mastery, 10 Earth Prayers, 10 Mysticism and a max customized GbF scythe inflicts 57.4 DPS per target vs. AL 60, 40.6 DPS vs. AL 80 and 28.7 DPS vs. AL 100 assuming HoF is up half the time. IW + Flurry with 16 Illusion Magic and a scythe inflicts ~35.8 DPS per target while attacking, and relies on a single, easily removed enchantment. -- Gordon Ecker 01:46, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

Vigorous Spirit

Readem keeps reverting my edit about Vigorous Spirit being useful due to Assassin's having a higher hit rate than other professions without offering any reason except for "Vig sins suck. Pls kill moar". From this I gather that he thinks the article is about only PvP (either that or he has never played an Asssassin). Unless someone can give me a compelling reason not to include it I will be adding it back in. As for this: "Monk skills have no specific synergy with Assassins" I, again, do not agree because Vigorous Spirit is much more useful for Assassins than it is for other professions. If the general secondary page had said something about Vigorous Spirit I would accept it but it doe not. Again, someone please give me a compelling reason why it does not belong here. Else I will be editing it back in. - 12.218.0.130 00:00, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

A Warrior with IAS (thus hitting more often than Assassins) doesn't actually get all that high healing per second due to kiting. Thus the "Vig sins suck. Pls kill moar" comment by Readem. --Kale Ironfist 00:26, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

An Assassin with IAS hits more than a Warrior, though. PvE foes don't really kite either. Nevertheless I agree with Readem's logic, even though his edit summaries could be a bit more...tactful. Vig Spirit + Live Vicariously on a Warrior/Monk for the "Full Vigor Paladin" is half-decent but still underpowered if you have any sort of adequate Monk healing you. Assassins already get some decent self-heals anyways, in the Shadow Arts line... (T/C) 00:31, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

Yeh, sins have better things to be doing than healing. Namely... killing. Even in PvE, I bring monks. Usually heroes, mind you; I don't generally trust my life to a pug monk with healing breeze and heal party on his bar. -Auron 00:32, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

Sure, an Assassin with Locust's Fury, Critical Agility or both can get a better attack rate than any other profession, but Warriors and Rangers have multi-target attacks, and Dervishes can hit up to three targets with a scythe and reclaim part of the energy cost with Mysticism. You could add the note to the melee section of the general secondary professions article, as well as the secondary professions for a Ranger. -- Gordon Ecker 00:38, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

I understand about monks being more useful than monk skills on a non-monk primary but this is true of all professions. Why does this fact prevent monk skills being listed as synergizing with assassin skills when it does not prevent it for other professions? - 209.254.211.38 02:33, 15 July 2007 (CDT)

One of the reasons for the creation of the general secondary professions article was that the same notes, such as the ones on condition removal, hex removal and resurrection skills, were repeatedly being added to and removed from multiple profession combination articles. -- Gordon Ecker 03:33, 15 July 2007 (CDT)

That did not answer my question. Vigorous Spirit is more specific to Assassins than for other classes because, by default, they hit more often than other classes (except for Dervishes). Furthermore there is not a note about Vigorous Spirit on the general secondary professions article. - 64.186.62.26 00:54, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

The simple (and probably unsatisfying) answer is that we have a policy against revert wars and a clear concensus on the talk page against a Vigorous Spirit note in this article. The reason I agreed with Readem is that I believe general, broadly applicable notes belong in the general secondary professions article in order to prevent the specific secondary profession articles from being cluttered with redundant information, everyone else has already explained their opinions. As for the lack of a note in the general secondary professions artile, there's nothing preventing you from adding the note yourself. -- Gordon Ecker 03:19, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

I know there is a policy against reverts, hence why I have only reverted the article once. I have not broken any rules. And, notice, that I did come here to see others' reasoning. I still do not understand because, it seems to me, Vigorous Spirit is much more useful for Assassins than other classes due to the fact that Assassins attack more often. No one has yet responded to my query as to why that does not make it a candidate for addition to the article and instead someone has come to inform me of a rule which I have never broken. If someone would just tell me why it does not belong here I would be perfectly happy with it the way it is but to me Vigorous Spirit is more beneficial to Assassins than to other classes because they hit more often, thus triggering Vigorous Spirit more often. And yet no one has explained this to me and, therefore, not made me happy. But whatever. I give up. If no one wants to talk about it but, instead, repeat the same things that I have already raised issue with than I am not going to bother. - 64.186.62.26 09:33, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

You asked for a reason not to add it back in. Kale, Entropy and Auron gave reasons related to viability, I gave a reason related to conciseness and article scope (as well as pointing out places where I think you note is less likely to be removed from) and a reason related to policy. I was not accusing you of breaking any rules, just pointing out policy as politely as I could manage. Anyway, if you don't feel like adding the Vigorous Spirit notes elsewhere, I will. -- Gordon Ecker 17:51, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

A/Mo question

I have been playing my sin for almost a year and have beat Proph, Fac, and Nightfall a few times. I like playing with him more than my other characters and like to switch up his build every once and a while. I was just trying to put one together and wondered if any of you have tried a A/Mo using Retribution or Strength of Honor? I've heard of A/E using conjue whatever to gain bonus damage, but do any of these also apply to your chain attacks or just normal attacks? I will try it soon, but I was just looking for a little insight before I invested too much time on something that doesn't work well. (which I have done plenty of times) Holy Wrath has too high of an energy consumption, but the upkeep for Retribution may be worth the damage back to attacker. silentbp 08-29-08

Strength of Honor is a good skill. By making your damage holy it bypasses all specialized armor (vs phy, vs ele). And the unconditional bonus damage works well based on your attack speed and double attacks. And yes, the damage is added to all attacks and attack skills. Retribution I wouldn't recommend, since being hit is generally a bad thing. --JonTheMon 16:01, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Since Conjures add more damage per spec and leave your Energy Regeneration in tact, it's not advisable to run Strength of Honor. There's no plus on SoH, Conjures also ignore armor and add to each and every attack. --- -- (s)talkpage 16:06, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

SoH doesn't change it to holy damage. Having a Hero carry around SoH might be handy though --Gimmethegepgun 16:08, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Bah, getting SoH confused with Judge's Insight --JonTheMon 16:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Then still, you won't get Holy damage :P JI actally changes your damage to Light, which in essence does nothing. It's just... flashy. --- -- (s)talkpage 16:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Judge's Insight does change you attacks to holy damage, but I just wasn't sure about the upkeep versus the conjure. Holy damage used to be known as light damage in some sorts. I use mostly use fiery daggers anyway so its elemental damage, so if I used conjure flame, then it may be worth the skill spot.

And since I'm on the subject, kinda, what's your opinion on dagger mods? I prefere the +5 energy insc, the max fort, but the tang or handle, I forgot which one, its still up for grabs. I keep a fiery and an icy set of daggers, and have zelous and shiro's blades (they are mostly for looks) but I'm not sure which I like better. Barbed is good if your running jagged strike, but any ideas otherwise? silentbp 08-29-08

I usually use Zealous of Fortitude with either a +5 energy inscription or a 15^50 one. The zealous mod works wonders with my Moebius Strike/Death Blossom build. I guess a vampiric mod would work well too, but I've gotten used to my zealous :P. Backstabberu 21:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

JI does not change your dmg type to Holy, the description is inaccurate (hey, it's a Proph skil....). I personally use a Scythe to hit several monsters for 100+ damage per. Otherwise I just swap according to the situation, which is mostly using Vamp. I use Locust's Fury builds because I cba spamming 1-2-3-4-3 and then having to start with 1-2-3-4-3 again... c-space is much easier :D

Btw, don't use Jagged Strike whatsoever. Any other lead attack will surpass it's usefulness in so many ways ^^' --- -- (s)talkpage 21:53, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Uhh... yeah it does change it to Holy. It USED to be inaccurate, but now they've removed Light damage from the game (technically) so now it's accurate --Gimmethegepgun 01:04, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Just tested... Wow, that's weird. I wonder why Smiters didn't use it in PvP O_o" Strong. --- -- (s)talkpage 08:02, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the ideas. I have tried this weekend to skip the monk skills and try conjure flame, and with fire magic at 9, it gives me +14. its an extra 56 on my small 1-2-3 attack chain. I think that I like it better than my usual build. I appreciate the ideas, and I'll keep them in mind. ---silentbp 09-01-08

A/R

you cant spread conditions with barrage and sharpen daggers anymore...i think someone must change thatWormtongue Gr 17:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

A/P shield or focus?

Can anyone tell me what their experience is with offhand items as a spearwielding A/P? Shield or focus? Both seem good. It's just too bad that if you have most points spent on Critical Strikes and Spear Mastery that a shield won't give any armour because you don't meet the Motivation or Command requirements. Same thing sort of goes for focus items. Thanks. --Qkizarvi 18:03, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Why would you want to use a focus? A/Ps have plenty energy + more base energy != energy management. --- -- (contribs) (talk) 16:43, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

You've got a point there. What about a shield (for armor) though? With most points spent on Critical Strikes and Spear Mastery there's not a lot left to spend on either Command or Motivation. Thanks. --Qkizarvi 11:01, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

You'd still get full inscription bonus (which, in PvP would be either -20% blind or armor vs. X), +health and 6 armor. --- -- (contribs) (talk) 12:41, 24 June 2009 (UTC)