Talk:Thunderhead Keep (mission)

Objective?

Don't you also have to kill Confessor Dorian at the end? --Karlos 07:31, 30 Jun 2005 (EST)

When I did it, he attacked at the end. So I guess he's part of the "defend" objective? --Fyren 19:48, 30 Jun 2005 (EST)

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I submitted comments on key decisions that need to be made prior to starting this mission. These came about out of my frustration of not finding a group that could trully act as a team (many claim to be willing to work as a team; most mean that they'll work as a team as long as everyone follows them - get two or three people in your party with this attitude, and it's a lost cause). I also expanded on the alternate strategy - after trying both, it does appear to be the easier of the two. Last, I added a tip at the bottom, also brought about by my frustration at the mission start finding people who have used a runner and bypassed earlier missions. They may have armor from Droknar's, but if it's not infused, it's worthless from this point on in the game. I've seen the question "where do I get my armor infused" several times. One of the many reasons I hate runners. -A_Non_Mouse

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I've deleted most of the change by Mord for now, since I'm doubtful if the new information is correct, and the writing needs either heavy editing or deletion. (The information in the first three sentences was OK, but I managed to replace them with five words without losing anything useful.) Can anybody confirm whether:

• The bonus Mursaat fight the other enemies when outside the players' aggro ranges. (If this is true, it sounds like a bug to me—the bonus is supposed to make things harder.)
• Enemies prefer to attack players carrying torches. (This sounds more reasonable, since some other carried objects have the same effect, but I've never tried it.)

—Tariel 12:43, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I ran through Thunderhead and bonus again tonight. I held the torch throughout the bonus, with no difference in NPC behavior towards me. Also, I question the value of the tips on party formation. Tonight we finished the bonus with no NPC making it into the gate, and killing Dorian while his party was still on the east side, and the party was composed different than the 'tip' party (two monks, two necros, and one each of the remaining). Unless we're going to get into a listing of all possible party formations that work well, this section to me seems common sense and should just be removed. User:Barek

Retried this back in January, and the torches clearly do make a difference now. My guild rarely uses it, but it is a potential method to deal with the mission. --Barek 11:31, 14 March 2006 (CST)

The bonus Mursaat fight the other enemies when outside the player's aggro ranges. That's definetly true. I tried it out a couple of days ago. --betaman 00:52, 6 April 2006 (CDT)

I'm outta here

Well, given the difficulty that groups have in doing Thunderhead (I do it for fun, along with Thirsty), the information of mine that was deleted really is essential and useful to others, even though it may be duplicated elsewhere. Expecting people to understand all of the nuances, especially when there are no links (and, no, I have no idea that the information appears elsewhere, or even what appears elsewhere), is unrealistic. If this was a straightforward and standard mission, I can see how redundant information could be unnecessary. However, this isn't a simple mission.

I'm not going to get into yet another wikipedia editing war, and so I'm just going to leave. Don't bother replying.

--Morty 04:23, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

If you are saying that players got to Thunderhead Keep and yet do not know that they should attack boss last (with a few exceptions) or that they should have two monks, then I think you are mistaken. A lot of the stuff you put in was very basic. Now maybe some people need to be told that stuff, but I don't see where it is specific to Thunderhead keep. I do the mission every now and then because my ele needs the bonus and I have not seen any parties that go with one monk or none, nor any parties that attack boss first. That does not disprove your experience, it's just not as widespread as you think.

I think others will agree however that we are categorically against a "tried-and-true" ONE way of doing things. I am sure a group of veterans can do Thunderhead Keep with 4 mesmers, 3 necros and one Earth Ele if they so wanted. Just like a group of not so experienced players might try your tried and true method and fail. --Karlos 04:40, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I still disagree with the suggested tips on party formations. Since we're comparing background on it: I've completed the mission and the bonus more times than I can count, and my guild has gotten to where we set arbitrary goals just to keep it challenging (like last night's killing Dorian to the east before he ever turns around to the west gate, etc). Our guild used to routinely charge clients to guide them through, but we've temporarilly stopped due to how simplistic the mission is for us now (lack of a challenge).

The only ones that I would insist on using are two monks, and even then the henchies are adequate. For the others, I would prefer at least one tank and one ranger; but no point mandating more, that's optional. The rest of the party can be nearly any profession mix. The main key is keeping a balanced team with a mix of multiple professions; but this is common sense and behavior that the player should already know by this mission. On the currently suggested build: Only one tank is actually needed. The rangers can both be trappers and be the ones pulling the targets. Shutdown Mesmers are a plus, but optional. Necros can use minions in the latter half and still be useful, there are still Mantle, Giants, etc with bodies to exploit. An Ele is a plus, but again optional if other ranged casting is in the party (again, as I said above, a balanced team mix).

Basically, I still feel this section pushes players too much to the author's method, without considering that others have perfectly functional team builds that are at least as effective. --Barek 11:46, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Is it possible to add that this mission might be easier with henchmen as the general PUG quality is not enough ? --Melkor 13:19, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

As I can't resist putting my two cents in here, let me say that I think both the team suggestions and the opposition to the suggestions are too strong. Yes, no particular unit (except perhaps a monk and a tank) is absolutely needed, but it is just a lie to say that this mission can be done with any composition at all. Prove me wrong. Finish the mission with one tank and seven healing monks, or one monk and seven stance tanks and post screenshots. Yes, we agree. You are a God among Guild Wars players if you can make do with nontraditional teams; your dick swings mightily. Still, this is supposed to be a helpful guide, and suggesting a generally balanced (though highly stereotypical) team is helpful.

Actually, for all I'm concerned, all of you can quit the wiki in a huff so I can finally edit everything to exactly my tastes. — Stabber 13:35, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

ummm, was your post directed at me? I did say above "The main key is keeping a balanced team with a mix of multiple professions; but this is common sense and behavior that the player should already know by this mission." --Barek 13:41, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

When you temper your otherwise reasonable statements with lines like "[t]he rest of the party can be nearly any profession mix", one is left to wonder what you mean by "balanced team". OK, so you say that you need "a mix of multiple professions". Fine. If you feel so strongly that the article is overadvocating a particular team build, go in and change it instead of griping that "blah blah is a plus but optional" here. Bah. Can you tell that I'm sick of these pointless arguments? — Stabber 13:51, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

No problem, my main reason for putting it here was to try to get a dialog, rather than another back/forth editing process going again. Also, someone else had already irritated the original poster by deleting some of his post, so I wanted to start a discussion before changing it further. Sorry if my background at the keep came accross as bragging; the only reason I put in my background was because the original poster had done so as well, and I wanted to clarify that my comments against his additions were not arbitrary. To avoid a "pointless argument" here, I just went ahead and made edits to the lines that stood out to me most - others will edit my changes further, I'm sure.

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I hadn't read my talk post the way you did; it was meant to state that any balanced team build will work, and the originally wording of the team build tips seemed too forceful towards one potential build. I'll work on my phasing to better clarify my intents. --Barek 14:16, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

All right, thanks, I think we're on the same page now, and I find very little in the article as of this moment to criticize. I am just irritated by the drama, which was ratcheted up several notches by Morty. I never like it when people leave over editing disputes. Perhaps it is for the best: wikis can be very unkind to squishies. — Stabber 14:29, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

How ironic. --Tjoneil 21:04, 27 May 2006 (CDT)

I´ve done the mission with one monk before. Me! But then again, my d**k does swing mightiliy :P 194.78.87.122 11:37, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I thought the difficulty of this mission was greatly exaggerated. Maybe I just got lucky, but as a fire ele, I just beat the mission with a group of henchmen on my first try. Never touched the ballistas. Except for the Mursaat boss, it was pretty easy; the Ascension missions were much more difficult for me. So I'd say that the "A party that doesn't work together and communicate will not stand a chance." warning is unnecessary. This is a fairly easy mission to solo. -PKDawson 22:31, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I just did this mission with as a level 15 Warrior/Ele, uninfused, Yak's Bend armor, and 7 henchmen; attacking only with a Horn Bow. The difficulty players have with this mission is due to player error, incorrect team balance, unfocused attacks, or incorrect targeting. I think linking the article to another article about how to play would help alot more than adding sections about how to play to in this one. Alot of people go through the whole game with their pre-searing builds. --Sagius Truthbarron 13:43, 7 March 2006 (CST)

Keep Attackers

Just as I was running up to Ironhammer to end the mission I saw some red names - Keep Attacker - anyone know what these are? 3 seconds later the cutscene started so I didn't get to see their appearence =( 195.137.4.228/— Skuld 11:31, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

There almost certainly the creatures you see in the cutscene. As you don´t get to see the names of creatures in the cut scenes; they´re given informative rather than interesting names, so that the cut scene directors can construct them. Or something along those lines, I´m sure. 194.78.87.122 11:36, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The cutscene is generated in real-time. During the cut-scene, you see several creatures attack just outside of the east gate while Vizier Khilbron escorts the party to the transport that takes them to the Ring of Fire Islands. The creatures in the cutscene are the ones that you saw suddenly appear for a couple seconds before the cut scene kicks in. --Barek 11:40, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

This can be proven by the fact that it bugs sometimes—Ruins of Surmia is possibly the one that bugs most often, allowing one or two charr to attack the players. I've also seen it happen at riverside province, where one White Mantle knight got onto the bridge as it fell and ran through the air, then attacked our party leader. One of our party members then referred to him as the "Jesus knight." — Lunarbunny 12:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Here's an example of "cutscene props left behind:"

This happens if you do not attack the Titan at the end of Abaddon's Mouth. The Vizier and the Lich were used for the cutscene then "left on the side" past the stairs on the left (if you are facing the Titan). The Lich does not attack and the Vizier has nothing to say. I found the Lich immune to attacks, but I did not try health degen. --Karlos 17:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Enchanted torches

Added tip about the Enchanted torch for Strategy B (Holding the Fort). Just completed this mission using this strategy, after one of our warriors dropped from the mission and we were down to one tank. I credit the protection monk, who was with us, for suggesting it.

I actually tried this once, and the enchanted torches made no difference whatsoever about who the mobs attacked first. They automatically targetted whoever was furthest in front, whether they had the torch or not. At the time, I wrote it off as just coincidence for whoever thought it worked, or just an urban-legend type thing brought on because it sounded plausible (after all, carrying cogs does cause this behavior). I'll try it again (once my video card is working correctly again) and see if the mission was changed to now make this work. --Barek 11:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The enchanted torch trick definately works. I have used it on multiple occasions with very good results. As always hexes might be cast on others and chain lightning is an AoE spell so others will take damage, but not much.

I should've updated this thread long ago. When I first tried it many months ago, I hadn't noticed a difference. When I retried it back in January after posting my comment here, it most definitely worked. Something was changed in a patch at some point, but I have no idea which patch or when. --Barek 11:29, 14 March 2006 (CST)

Bereks original comment is partially true. Attackers will go for the first person they encounter, however, will switch to an enchanted torch bearer after one or two attacks. The exception is King Jalis Ironhammer. Attackers stay on him longer, so the torch bearer should shadow the King after the mursaat/jade boss is killed and the King begins to wander around. --Rohar 12:15, 11 April 2006 (-5 GMT)

Can someone test this again? As a result of recent game updates, the bundle trick no longer works for other items (confirmed on Gears, etc). Someone should verify it no longer works here as well. --161.88.255.140 13:38, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

Shutdown mesmer

Hello, can someone give me a good basic shutdown mesmer build?

I don't think shut down mesmer is effective for this mission... interruption + backfire probably work better. -PanSola 06:46, 13 March 2006 (CST)

There's also the article Shutdown Mesmer. --Karlos 06:24, 6 April 2006 (CDT)

I just did it with leak+spike and blackout and they weren't needed Skuld 11:56, 11 April 2006 (CDT)

Exploit?

Has anyone tested the "mysterious rumor" that is listed as an exploit? Does it work? I've never seen it used, and I've done this mission with many different groups. --161.88.255.140 12:13, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

You are right. Unless someone can confirm it, preferably with screenshots, it doesn't belong here. GW:NOT a rumormill. — Stabber 12:17, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

Thanks, I was hesitant to remove it myself as it appeared to be added over a month ago by Foo, who seems to be a fairly reliable and regular contributor. --161.88.255.140 12:25, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

Omg! The ninjas abducted her and are now controlling our minds! Run for your lives and for the sake of humanity! *panic* --Gem 12:28, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

Well, I got it from a reliable source, but haven't had the energy and partners to check it for real. when I'll do, I'll let you all know. and 161.88, thanks for the vote of confidence. Foo 17:34, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

There were many problems with that note. You're lucky I didn't get to dismiss it with one of my super-dismissive reverts. :) First of all, when you start out any piece of information with "mysterious rumors say that..." then you KNOW that piece of information is just not worth stating. I can't recall what Wikipedia calls it but it's basically something like "Don't be a chicken." If you're gonna put something in a wiki be honest and clear as to what the source is. Expressions like "It is believed" or "some people say" are just too gray, and are actually often used by people who want to give more weight to their opinion than there actually is (not saying that's the case for you).

On a second level, the note actually did not "say" anything. It said: Light the beacons and go back and the mission will be a lot easier. Very vague. How much easier? Why? Will the Mursaat fight the Stone Summit? Who? When? How come? Anyways, don't mean to give you a hard time, but I thought it's a good opportunity to bring up that note about "some people say." --Karlos 21:20, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

I wanted to give people a chance to check something that might be worth noting. I guess you would probably prefered that I would put it in the talk page rather then the article. I can not see how I am 'Lucky'. Foo 05:00, 21 April 2006 (CDT)

This particular exploit, unlike the Enchanted Torch trick, still works as of a day after Factions came out; I tried it while I was uncovering the Thunderhead Keep map. I am hesitant to actually put it back into the article as I don't know Guildwiki's stance on exploits, but it does work. I wish people would try to prove things themselves rather than hope someone else does for them. -12.215.200.88 16:08, 14 May 2006 (CDT)

Okay, that was me above. :/ -Savio 16:09, 14 May 2006 (CDT)

You might want to explain better how it works. In the normal mission, most of the attackers of the fort are teh Mursaat/White Mantle. The regular spawn of Stone Summit attackers get quickly wiped out by the Mursaat. Lighting the beacon should attract more Mursaat, not Stone Summit. So does this mean the attracted Mursaat will fight the regular mission Mursaat? Or does lighting the beacons somehow unexpectedly attrack Stone Summit who will fight the regular mission Mursaat? etc etc. -PanSola 19:57, 14 May 2006 (CDT)

As you know, lighting the beacons draws additional Mursaat forces into the keep. Specifically, six Jade Armors and Bows enter the keep and stay in the middle area, by where Dagnar stood earlier. These "rogue Jades" will attack anyone, whether it be your team, Stone Summit, or other Mursaat. As long as you stay well away from their wandering area (usually by King Jalis) they will take out the first waves of enemies for you. Your enemies are not infused, so the Stone Summit and White Mantle just crumble against Spectral Agony. Even Mursaat and Jades aren't infused, but since they too use Spectral Agony the rogue Jades start dying while fighting them. Eventually the rogue Jades are wiped out by other Mursaat and the bosses, but not before taking out all of the Stone Summit waves and a few of the Mursaat. -Savio 22:01, 14 May 2006 (CDT)

Cool, thanks for the details. It now makes sense. (-: -PanSola 22:07, 14 May 2006 (CDT)

Have they made THK easier?

I recently did this with my two Canthian chars (a necro and a mesmer), and a with my Tyrian warrior (finishing up bonuses), and I have an uneasy impression that they've made it easier. By a lot. In the last try, the one with my warrior, we were in 5, only one monk, and the ele's nuking consisted of spamming Fire Storm. And yet we made it without any considerable trouble. Same impression on my necro and mesmer. There was just so many gaps between the groups of Mursaat and White Mantle, that we didn't feel rushed at all. Even took our sweet time killing the monk boss. Any ideas? --Dirigible 17:38, 18 May 2006 (CDT)

I hope not! If it's easier to the point that people are no longer willing to pay to have someone get them through it, that would hurt one of my sources of income! --I am 161.88 17:52, 18 May 2006 (CDT)

I had the same impression recently, while doing the bonus. The time between attacks is plenty and apart from the first group, you never get attacked at 2 gates at once. --Xeeron 04:43, 19 May 2006 (CDT)

I remember a time when lighting the beacons would have brought in an additional Mursaat boss or two. They stopped doing that a while ago. THK is a joke these days. 195.169.149.213 04:50, 19 May 2006 (CDT)

It was never hard to begin with. :) All my chars got through it fairly easily. My necro even did it with just another human player. :) --Karlos 06:02, 19 May 2006 (CDT)

My trick is get everyone to stick at the top defending the king, don't really use the cannons and if we do, we have everyone come back when the enemy reach the stairs. with this slow and steady strategy we never fail if we have all active players (or henchies), it really isn't hard at all just tedious like that bit where you protect Confessor Dorian in the "mending ring" in Kryta... - snoooore - --Jamie 06:15, 19 May 2006 (CDT)

Hmmm, didn't seem any "easier"; but then it was simplistic enough already. As Jamie said, it was always more tedious than anything else being especially hard about it. Maybe everyone has just done it so many times that the original challenge is gone? I started using strategy C many months ago just to add a twist, and even that has gotten dull from repetition. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 08:52, 19 May 2006 (CDT)

Defending the Gates much harder than Camping at King?

Is it me, or is splitting the groups between each gate actually much harder to pull off compared to just camping at the king?

I've had roughly 15 failures with groups trying to defend the western and eastern gates, and two out of three successes with groups who just camped at the king the entire time. The failure in this case was me alone with henchmen. I think it's just easier for most groups to kill wave after wave of monsters at one spot compared to shuttling back and forth between two spots.

Advantage of gate defense is you don't risk Chain Lightning and Spectral Agony hitting the king at all. The king is pretty fragile against them. I personally run between the gates when I hench, watching carefully to see the other gate is clear. I find that as long as I have aggroed a group of mobs at one gate, I can run to the other gate and aggro new incomings and they'll all fight my party instead of running to the King, so I get best of both worlds. Most of the time I don't have to do the run-between as my 7-hench group got enough power to beat the mobs as they come. It's especially easy with my Domination mesmer, using only Echo, Backfire, Empathy, and Cry of Frustration most of the time. Guarding by the King works similarily, there is just less margin for error. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 04:03, 22 May 2006 (CDT)

It is much easier imho to defend the gates. You need one man on both walls using the ballistas and one monk on each side to heal. Rest of the group professions are irrelevant. A mesmer on the side which gets more enemies and the boss is nice. The other 4 members should always move to the center after they have killed the current enemies so they can help the side which needs it. -- 04:05, 22 May 2006 (CDT)

I find camping at the king is fine and i've never had any problems that PanSola pointed out, the only problems i have with camping at the king is people straying away from the core group. if people stray thats the end of it because you need the whole team to act as a wall. --Jamie 04:07, 22 May 2006 (CDT)

I have never camped at the king, but I have a 100% success rate at the gates if I have had time to discuss the plan beforehand. I once took a PuG with no planning and they failed miserably, thou a poor party can still make it. We did the bonus yesterday with 2 players afk. :) -- 04:11, 22 May 2006 (CDT)

I've never succeeded in dozens of attempts with groups to camp the king successfully. I have, however, done (even did the bonus one time.. didn't even notice we were doing it!) the gates really easily by splitting how Gem said. Conversely, a friend of mine was unable to do the gates a few tries then succeeded camping the king. *shrugs* - Greven 04:43, 22 May 2006 (CDT)

I am sure it depends on the team set up and player play styles. -- 04:53, 22 May 2006 (CDT)

I've had the same overall impression as Jamie. I've done THK more times than I care to remember, and camping the king has undoubtly worked much more successfully than splitting the team. With PUGs, you can never know who's competent, and who isn't. You split the team as per your designation (monk on each side, manned catapults, etc), everyone's happily hacking through the first few white mantle, and then wham! one side starts dropping fast. You can say they got overwhelmed, or it might also be that they weren't skilled enough to deal with their foes. It's irrelevant. All that matters is that they got mowed down.

The way I see it, if the team splits, the probability that (at least) one side will prove unable to hold their ground quadruples (not a full party of 8 now; you have two smaller groups of half that)! If they stick together at the top of the stairs, near the king, they can compensate for each other; one monk is spamming HB instead of wisely throwing WoH/Dwayna's around? The other one can step in and try and compensate. Being together helps with that.

In my entire experience, only once has the king died before the rest of the party, when we had decided to camp him; that time was when we got a bit carried away, overextending to one side, as some Mursaat sneaked past us to the King. He usually is far enough from the attackers that neither Chain Lightening nor Agony hits him.

Just my experience. :) --Dirigible 04:56, 22 May 2006 (CDT)

Thats why I said that the party should always move to the center after defeating the foes. They can easily move to the other side to help. The monsters usually aren't attacking both sides at the same time, and when they are, there is only a small group on the other side. When I play with incompetent or unknown players I assign them to the sides and run from side to side alone or with one friend. No problem ever, not even with the 2 afk guys. -- 05:16, 22 May 2006 (CDT)

The problem I've seen when working the gates is that someone (usually more than one) inevitable gets over-ambitious and starts chasing down the mobs that are just outside the gate; then a just a bit further, then further. Until they're either too far out to make it back to the safety of support. With the team at least partially split, sometimes it's possible to recover/compensate, sometimes it's not. When working closer to the king (actually, working the stairs and ramps near the king) you can keep everyone in just a single group, so it's easier to compensate for afk or over-ambitious players. I've never lost due to the king getting taken out by chain lightning or crippling anguish.

I now usually use strategy C; which is currently written as a variant of strategy B, but could probably also work as a variant of strategy A. The plus of that strategy is if timed correctly, by the end the group is still in a single group and also well clear of the king - the best parts of both A and B!

Regardless, I do recommend removing the recent edit re: "A PUG should probably use this strategy as it requires much less coordination to execute successfully compared to watching over two gates". I do agree that the chance of success with a poorly coordinated group is better; but it's a subjective call that should be left to the player. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 09:04, 22 May 2006 (CDT)

Good Teams

Would it be a good idea to have "workable" team layouts?

True example: I got Mission and Bonus the other day with 2 Nukers, 2 Healer Henchies, a MM, 2 Warriors and a Ranger. (Strategy A was loosely followed)

A workable team of that kind is actualy the usual balanced team, and I'm sure that's something noted in this wiki, and that is known in a way to every player. Foo 20:33, 27 May 2006 (CDT)